Fee Sheet Meets ... Josh Forti: "When money has been your god and now it’s not, that changes things"
In the first Fee Sheet interview, Shane speaks to Josh Forti on income, wealth, religion, identity and Bitcoin.
This is the first of a regular series of in longform, in-depth, Q&A-style interviews on Fee Sheet. If this is your first time here, check out this post about what this publication aims to do, and this one about pricing. All interviews are posted on a 50/50 system. The first half — often several thousand words — will be available for free. The rest, and all other content, is for paying subscribers.
Now, on with the interview!
Josh Forti is a Christian, husband, father, entrepreneur and host of “The Golden Mic” podcast.
With over 7,000,000 followers grown and managed, and tens of millions of dollars sold online, Josh teaches online service providers how to sell their services for lots of money, to clients that have lots of money, using a “golden mic”.
From growing up in a farming community in Indiana where life was good but money was always in short supply, Josh Forti built a seven-figure business, then dismantled it when the call came to follow a different path.
In this wide-ranging interview, you will learn:
How Josh experienced the call to follow Jesus Christ
How nothing great is possible until you figure out who you are
The difference between income and wealth
How he learned to solve the problems of the rich
How he experienced the mindset shift from scarcity to abundance
Why he has invested 90% of his net worth in Bitcoin
And lots more
Shane Breslin:
Hey Josh. So, what introduced me to you and your work was that video I saw on Twitter/X from last year, where you explored and asked powerful questions about the money game, the income game, the wealth game. So taking it right back to the start. What was your relationship with money as a child? Your family history? What were the conversations around money? Tell me a little bit about your memories around it.
Josh Forti:
Hey Shane. Yeah, great question, so I grew up on a farm for most of my life in Indiana. I was born in Wisconsin, we moved early on to the suburbs of Los Angeles, and then at age 11, we moved across the country to a farm in Indiana. I remember a little bit of California but that’s really when I start remembering things. It’s important context to say I grew up in a great family. I love my parents to death, I have a great relationship with them. They’re still together, which is wonderful. But the area of money was certainly one of the areas that we struggled to understand. My relationship with money growing up was that every decision revolved around money, and mostly the lack of it. We did not have enough money to do certain things. Unlike a lot of other households, we did talk somewhat openly about money. It wasn’t a taboo topic, we knew money was important, but we never had any in excess. I was always taught to save because there would always be an emergency where you would need it, but it was very much a mentality that you’re always going to struggle with it.
SB:
What about the community around you? Was everybody in the same boat? Were there people around you who you remember being on a different level or having a different relationship with money, even at a young age?
JF:
I was in two worlds at the same time growing up. It was a farm town in the middle of a cornfield. So there was my church community and there was the farming community.
In the church community, a lot of people were in a similar situation to us. Great life, but a lot of scarcity, a lot of need, a lot of praying for God’s provision. There were a couple of families with money, but they didn’t flaunt it. Most people were financially tight, not struggling to the point of homelessness, but certainly financially tight.
In the farm community, it was farm money. A lot of people did have money, a lot of them didn’t, maybe half and half. But the money they did have was tied up in farming equipment, land, barns, tractors, assets. I wouldn’t have equated those people with having tons of money. It was more quiet money, more wholesome, being used as it should be. But I wasn’t old enough or wise enough to understand what was really going on because I didn’t understand money at all.
“That week, my brain hurt from processing all this new information. My entire belief system around money shattered.”
SB:
How has your relationship with money changed as you moved into adulthood? Was it an iterative process or were there clear milestones where your understanding or mindset around it changed rapidly?
JF:
For most of my childhood and adulthood, until recently, my life revolved around money. That's not a positive thing. As I got older I started to get more obsessed with making money, and the first major breakthrough was in my understanding of that, of making money.
A mentor once told me, “Josh, making $100,000 in a day is easier than making $100,000 in a year.” I didn’t believe him at first, but then I made $100,000 in a day. It changed everything, but I was still in scarcity. Still fearing I would lose it all. My relationship with money has had exponential shifts, when stuff happened all at once. So the first major shift was that — making $100,000 in a day. The second big shift was having $100,000 in my bank account free and clear after taxes. That gave me a level of freedom, the freedom to think without being in scarcity. And the biggest shift was the video you saw on Twitter.
I’d had a business doing about a million dollars a year and long story short, I recommitted my life to Christ, shut down that company, and sought clarity. I flew out to my friend Brad’s house. Brad is probably the wealthiest man I’ve ever met, very smart with money. He lives in a 12,000-square-foot house with insane features like a tunnel to a guest house and a rock-climbing wall in the basement. He was working on a deal worth $10 million, with $7 million into the deal, and he put in zero of his own money. That blew my mind. He explained it’s all about understanding money, debt, and assets and he recommended books like Fake by Robert Kiyosaki. And he took me to his window. He's in Salt Lake, so we go out there and it's overlooking all these houses below, you can see the lake out there, and just all this wealth. And he goes, “Josh, do you see all this? It's all fake. It's all made up. It's all debt.” And I'm like, I don't understand. That week, my brain hurt from processing all this new information. My entire belief system around money shattered. That was the biggest shift for me.
SB:
There are a few different areas there I’d love to explore. The first one is making $100,000 in a day. Many people have an ambition to make that in a year and have never been able to achieve it. You said you initially thought it wasn’t possible. Can you give some insights into what practical, pragmatic things did you put in place to make that happen?
JF:
Sure, we did a five-day challenge. But that’s not the most helpful answer. It was about understanding human psychology. I struggled to make money for most of my life until a mentor told me, “If you want to make a lot of money, study human psychology. Study how people make decisions.”
As Myron Golden says, people buy because they feel like it. So focus on creating an environment that makes them feel like buying. I view the world through energy. Not in a woo-woo sense, but everything is energy, vibrations. If you think of it like a swimming pool or an ocean, it’s easier to fill a swimming pool with energy than an ocean. Our five-day challenge was like filling a swimming pool with energy. Rather than spreading my effort over a year, I condensed it into a week. I created that energy and environment where people felt like buying. I made an offer at the end and over $100,000 in sales came through. It was about creating that energy, shifting beliefs, and making people feel good about buying. And the results for the clients who bought were also amazing.”
“When money has been your god and now it’s not, that changes things. When entrepreneurship has been your religion and now it’s not, that changes things.”
SB:
Okay, I have a follow-up question there. I’ve never been to any of your challenges or events. And I haven't seen Tony Robbins live, but I have attended some of his online challenges with Dean Graziosi, I was at an event run by the late Bob Proctor, and I've been in a room with Grant Cardone and a few others. So I've seen things like this happen, and to my maybe too skeptical brain, I often see it as manipulation. I'm not sure that's the correct word.
JF:
That's the word. Absolutely, it is.
SB:
So, what do you think about that? Because to be honest, I've felt that skepticism, and I've talked to others who felt it too. And I'm also aware there are compelling arguments that say that this skepticism is a big part of what’s holding someone back from achieving what they want. What would you say to someone with that kind of skepticism or fear of being manipulated, someone who sees events like that in a negative way?
JF:
Fantastic question. I think you should be skeptical. Skepticism is healthy. I’m a Christian, and it's funny. People in the church ask how the Pharisees couldn't recognize Jesus. But like, if a dude walked into your church today or came to a sporting event and claimed to be God, wouldn't you be skeptical? Skepticism is good. When you use the word manipulation, there's a negative connotation, but all of life is manipulation. Manipulation can be positive or negative; it's just shifting a belief. I was incredibly skeptical at first. I never thought I could do it.
Secondly, I will say there are people who use these events for good and those who take advantage of others, just like everything in life. My advice is, before attending one of these events or going down this rabbit hole, look at who you're learning from and who’s doing the teaching. If your values and morals align with that person, then go for it. If not, reconsider. You mentioned Grant Cardone. I'm not bashing him. He knows a lot, but we probably have different morals and values. And your intention and your values matter.
When we do a launch, I'm the one fulfilling it with my clients. I am there every single day. You can talk to any of my clients; they have access to me. Other people sell, give you a few videos, and disappear. So you're going to get both. But I’d say, just make sure you pay attention to who you’re paying attention to.
SB:
You mentioned earlier that your business was doing a million a year, and you decided to shut it down after a spiritual awakening. Could you tell us more about that decision? But first, could you outline what that business was, what its business model was, and how it added up to seven figures?
JF:
It was a coaching business online. Unlike many coaches, I don't pretend to be good at everything. I teach one specific thing, which is why we've become good at it. We do online marketing and sales. My current business focuses more on online sales; this one was more on marketing. We sold through five-day challenges, doing one per quarter, generating $200-300 thousand per launch. It was group coaching, and I was very involved.
When I recommitted my life to Christ, I realized the business model didn't allow me to be the person I wanted to be. Before giving my life to Christ, I wanted to be famous, be on stages, and travel. After getting married and planning for kids, I realized I wanted to be home, be with my wife, and be involved in our local church. The business model didn’t align with my new priorities. It was profitable, but after praying about it, I shut it down.
SB:
I heard you say in one of your videos that Christ asked everything of you, including shutting your million-dollar-a-year business. What was it like during those meditations, prayers, and let’s say conversations with Christ? Could you tell us a bit about how you feel guided by him?
JF:
First, important context: I don't have a Christian business. I don't just teach Christians, and I don't use God in my marketing. I think the “prosperity gospel” is garbage, and using God's name to succeed in marketing is a dangerous thing to do.
When I recommitted my life to Christ, it was the week between Christmas and New Year’s 2022. In prayer and my relationship with Christ, it became very clear to me that money was my god and business was my religion. I realized everything I had done wasn't in alignment with who God wanted me to be. And I needed to start over. It wasn't an audible "thou shalt give up your business" moment, but a conviction, a knowing that everything I had done wasn’t right. I needed to start from the foundation and align my life with God.
It was difficult. We refunded tens of thousands of dollars. Over the next six to eight months, instead of building a new business, I fixed my personal life, relationships with family and friends, and unfinished business projects. I studied the Bible, read books, and did internal work. Now, I feel I am who God called me to be. I’ve given everything to Him: my money, relationships, health. From this point, I ask how I can take care of what I’ve been entrusted with.
SB:
One question that comes up for me is how did you feel during this transition? And when I say feel, I mean, almost sensation beyond language, like in your body. Do you have any memories of how you felt during this transition?
JF:
Oh I'll go as deep on this as you want.
SB:
Absolutely, please.
JF:
I didn’t know God, I didn’t know religion. I was at home by myself and decided to turn on some worship music. I put a YouTube video on the TV while I was cleaning the house. It was a three-hour-long night of praise or something like that. About an hour in, it stopped, and a pastor walked out on stage and said, “Tonight I’m going to tell you about Jesus.” I grew up in the church, so I thought I knew about Jesus.
The Jesus I had always been led to believe in was a kind shepherd boy. This guy painted Jesus in a totally different light over the next 45 minutes to an hour. He described Jesus as an all-powerful king who ruled over everything, but despite his power, he came down to walk among men. He felt what it was like to be tired, to have pain and sadness, to lose loved ones. He was beaten, spat on, and died on the cross. When that happened, he took all the sins of the world simultaneously and won. He beat it all.
When he framed it that way, it hit me. This all-powerful king loves you, wants a relationship with you, wants your heart, and wants what's best for you. In that moment, I was completely overwhelmed, flooded with gratitude and reverence. I literally fell on my face and began to praise him. There's something in the Bible called “the peace that passes understanding”. I had no idea what that meant, even though I’d heard of it growing up. But there was a peace, a knowing, a sense of being in the hands of the most powerful entity of all time, who loves me, and who beat all of death and darkness.
“Once I answered that, everything changed. If you can’t answer who you are, don’t worry about anything else until you can.”
That was crazy. For the next week, that feeling didn’t leave. Over the next several months, the decisions I made, and actions I took, made no logical sense. Shutting down a million-dollar-a-year business was crazy. Fixing decade-old relationships made no sense. But I had such peace about it. A guy worth a couple hundred million dollars asked why I shut down my business and said he could have shown me how to build it up. The old Josh would have freaked out, but I knew I had made the right move. The next six months were filled with peace, certainty, and immense gratitude knowing I’m his and don’t need any other validation.
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